Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:00:00:
Hi everyone, on today’s podcast, we’re going to talk with Brandie Bishop about training the next generation of Black doulas.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:00:10:
Welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. My name is Rebecca Dekker, and I’m a nurse with my PhD and the founder of Evidence Based Birth®. Join me each week as we work together to get evidence-based information into the hands of families and professionals around the world. As a reminder, this information is not medical advice. See ebbirth.com/disclaimer for more details. Hi everyone, and welcome to today’s episode of the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. My name is Rebecca Dekker, pronouns she/her, and I’ll be your host for today’s episode. Our guest today was born and raised in Inkster, Michigan, and is now a Georgia peach at heart. Brandie Bishop, pronouns she/her, is an experienced advocate in the maternal and child health field, and recently assumed the role of CEO in the National Black Doulas Association®. Brandie is bringing a rich background in maternal health and a strong commitment to community service. Her appointment signifies a major step forward and highlights the organization’s dedication to diversity, equity, and empowerment in the doula community. Brandie has spent 12 years as a fierce advocate for maternal mortality, serving hundreds of families, and mentoring countless other birth professionals. Brandie told me that this beautiful, life-saving work has a hold on her, and she prays it never lets go. We are so excited to welcome Brandie to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. Brandie we’re happy to have you.
Brandie Bishop – 00:01:40:
Yes, Rebecca, thank you so much. I’m so happy to be able to be on your platform and just be able to share my experiences and, you know, kind of what we’re up to at the NBDA.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:01:50:
And you all have been really busy. I know. I’ve been following along on social media. And I was wondering if you could start off by sharing with our listeners your journey. What led you to become a doula? And what are some of the experiences that fueled your passion for supporting pregnant folks, especially Black and Brown families and refugee families?
Brandie Bishop – 00:02:12:
Yeah, it’s so funny. I think, you know, of course being biased, but I think my journey to birth work is probably pretty unique. I think that when I talk to birth workers, when we’re training, doing mentorship, oftentimes I hear about their, you know, about personal stories of, you know, wanting to be able to help families based on the experiences that families have had. And or, you know, just maybe it being a part of their legacy, like, you know, maybe somebody in their family was a birth worker before that kind of thing. And so, Rebecca, funny thing is that growing up very young, I knew that I did not personally want to have children. You know, it’s a lot of work. There’s a lot of things that go into it. And I also, even from a young age, have enjoyed my quiet time. And so as I got older, you know, getting out into the work field and, you know, trying to choose a career path in my family, we have a lot of helping professions. My grandfather is one of my best friends. He’s a pastor. My mom’s a LCSW, so she does therapy. My grandmother has been a nurse for psych hospitals up until she retired. And so helping people is in my blood. And one of my first jobs ever was I was 14 years old and I was working at a homeless shelter in the inner city of Detroit. And that was my first journey or my first experience with people and vulnerable populations and what it looked like, what that experience could be when helping people. And so fast forwarding, I go to college and all of my friends are like, you know, majoring in things where you know exactly what they’re going to do when they leave school, like their teachers or they’re going into medical fields or things like that. And I’m like, I just like to help people. I don’t know what that really means, but I like to help people. And so while I was in school, I did an internship for an organization called World Relief. I went to school in Virginia, came down here to Atlanta to do my internship. And their primary role was resettling refugees from various countries in the world. Absolutely fell in love with the journey of just seeing refugee families being able to be liberated and, you know, find this new found home. And though it wasn’t easy, these, you know, such resilient people from so many different countries. But that was my first experience with working with pregnant women who were also refugees.
And also one of my first experiences working with, you know, pregnant women who were not part of my family. And, so when I graduated school, I went on to work at World Relief and I was able to work as intensive medical case manager there. Half of my job, I worked with torture and trauma victims from around the world. And I’ll be honest with you, it was a really hard part of my job. You know, oftentimes kept me up at night thinking about just what these families have been through to get here to this country. Listening to stories of, you know, just war and, you know, how things had really torn apart these families. The other half of my job, thankfully, was working with refugee women who were from various countries but came to our country pregnant. And so that allowed me to work with families from, you know, maybe 60 different countries and being able to support birth in so many different ways. That’s what really sparked this desire to be able to figure out, like, okay, birth looks like this in other countries. What does birth look like in our country? And what are we doing to make sure that birthing people are being heard, being seen, all of these things, right? And so that led me down this journey to being a doula. I was supporting one of my refugee clients at the hospital. Never heard of a doula. And I went out to grab a cup of coffee. There was a young lady there. She had on scrubs. I just assumed that she was a nurse. And I’m like, you know, just making small talk. It’s 3, 4 o’clock in the morning. You know, just trying to keep myself awake. So I asked her, you know, how many babies have you guys had on your shift? And she’s like, oh. You know, I’m not a nurse. I’m a doula. I’m like, never heard of this. So she starts to explain it to me. I’m like, that sounds like exactly what I’m doing here. You know, supporting families, making sure they’re seen, making sure they’re heard, making sure their cultural identity is still a part of their birth experience. And so after that, it was kind of history. I started to research doula work. I started to research birth work in general here in America. And from there, my passion for birth work has just continued to grow. And I always tell people, that I think that the reason why it was so easy for me to kind of answer the call into birth work is because sisterhood is such a staple in my life. I’ve just met so many amazing people in general. But in particular, women who have just, you know, lifted me up and been there for me. That when working with my clients, I really feel like, you know, it’s a calling to be there in some of their most vulnerable times. And to be a sister, you know. Whatever that birthing person experience is before they get to me. When they get to me, I want them to feel heard and seen and really well cared for. And so I feel like it’s kind of a roundabout journey. But, you know, it landed me here. And I’ve been here for 12 years. And I couldn’t be more grateful.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:07:04:
It’s always so inspirational to me to hear, you know, a story like yours and to hear someone’s origin story in the birth world. And I love that, you know, you chose to be child free and yet you are so passionate for supporting pregnant women and families. It’s just, I think I meet people like that a lot and it’s just really. I don’t know, unifying in a way, you know?
Brandie Bishop – 00:07:30:
Yeah.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:07:30:
To know we all come from this different paths and personal situations, but we all have this common goal.
Brandie Bishop – 00:07:37:
Yeah, yeah. I agree with you 100%, Rebecca. It is always interesting to see how people end up in birth work. How did we all get here, right?
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:07:45:
Yeah. And it sounds like the refugee families had a huge impact on you.
Brandie Bishop – 00:07:50:
To this day, Rebecca, I tell everybody, I joke about the fact that, I mean, of course it was a nonprofit agency. And I tell people I made $0.00, which of course is not true, but I did not make very much. But I will tell you to this day, hands down, one of the most profound jobs that I’ve ever had. And one of the things when people say, if you could have a job or if money wasn’t a problem, what would you do? I would continue to work with refugee families. I mean, and the fact, you know, and Black and Brown families that are birthing, just because it was something that had, you know, really opened my eyes. It really showed me what it looked like to really care for vulnerable populations. And even here in America, I think that anytime that you’re giving birth, you’re in a vulnerable position, right? There’s no more vulnerability than being completely naked in front of a bunch of people, you know. And so I just see that level of vulnerability and being able to translate it from those refugee families to the families that I continue to serve here, you know, Black and Brown families. But yeah, to say that they impacted me would be the least that I could say. My first company that I started as a solo doula, the name of it is Your Tribe Family Services, just because I worked with so many tribal women from, I mean, Uganda, different parts of like Central African Republic. You know, a lot of women were in the most dangerous refugee camp in the world, Darfur, there in Sudan. And a lot of these women came from tribes, literally, you know, like this is their life. And, but they taught me so much about their rituals and their culture when it comes to birth. And it did. It changed my life. It really, really did.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:09:26:
Mm-hmm. And opened your eyes to all the different ways of birthing around the world. Yeah.
Brandie Bishop – 00:09:33:
So, here in America, I find, and I joke about the fact that the most important person in the room when we’re in America is typically the baby. Everybody thinks the baby is the most important. But in other countries, the wonderful thing is that around the world, the person that they are really focused on is the birthing person. And I feel like that change is very, very necessary to how we do birth here in America. I always tell my parents, if I have happy, healthy parents or partners, I then know that I’m going to have a happy, healthy baby. That’s not always true the other way around, right? Baby can be happy and healthy. And I might have parents who are like pulling their hair out, tired, haven’t slept, haven’t ate. And so if I focus my attention and my energy on making sure that my family, you know, holistically is supported well, long term, I know that, you know, we’re building something that that child is going to be a part of, you know, this wonderful fabric of a family.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:10:28:
Right. What you were saying, it was reminding me of a common saying I hear from labor and delivery nurses about how I have two patients during a labor, the baby and the mom. And sometimes I have to focus on the baby. But I love the perspective you bring where as if, you know, the birthing person, their partner, if they’re healthy, stable, supported, like that filters down to the baby or treating everyone like one unit, not like separate entities. Because their futures and like their present are intertwined. Does that make sense?
Brandie Bishop – 00:11:00:
Yeah, 100%.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:11:02:
Yeah.
Brandie Bishop – 00:11:03:
100%. And I just think about how it must feel as a birther to be experiencing birth. I mean, honestly, your body, sometimes your life on the line to bring this, you know, this baby into the world and for everybody to lose focus on you and your health and your well-being. You know, it just I can only imagine in one of the most vulnerable times in your life for you to be the last person, thought of how hard that must be. So I always try to put myself in the position of like making sure, and I always teach this during our training. Let’s make sure that whoever our birther is, that they’re heard and that they’re seen. Because no matter how you get to the end goal of having your baby, as long as you I have learned over the years, because I’ve had people that have to have like emergency Cesareans or maybe they didn’t get exactly what they wanted out of their whatever they planned. Right. So their birth plan. But, because they were seen, because they were heard, because the staff acknowledge their feelings. They still have a beautiful birth story. Right. And so I think that it’s important the way that somebody experiences birth and how you love on them or nurture them during that vulnerable time is so pivotal to their experience, not only for birth, but for postpartum and then for parenting. And so, yeah, I think that it’s definitely something we need to do more of, you know, in our birth work community.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:12:23:
Yeah. Thank you for modeling that for your trainees. And that leads me to the National Black Doulas Association®. Could you walk us through kind of a brief history of the organization and what the mission and your vision is for the future?
Brandie Bishop – 00:12:37:
Yeah. And so the National Black Doulas Association® was started in 2017 by Ms. Tracie Collins, who I have been a longtime fan of. I remember when I first seen Tracie doing lives and, you know, it was during a really a period where there were not a lot of safe spaces for Black and Brown doulas. And I had become a doula, but I really was feeling like an island. I didn’t feel a lot of community, a lot of connection, and I wasn’t really sure where to find that. I laugh at this, but Tracie always talks about the fact that I was one of the founding members, which I feel like gives me so much credit. It sounds like I must’ve done something. When in reality, I was just one of this, you know, initial group of people that when she said she was starting this, I’m like, yes, I want to be a part of it, right. So besides telling her I wanted to be a part of it, I didn’t do much heavy lifting in the beginning. Right. I was very much a consumer of the NBDA all of the things, you know, from peer reviews to anytime it was, you know, we could do events and things like that. Like I was always on because I really wanted that community. I love being a birth worker, but I definitely am a very social person. And I tell people all the time that as a doula, you have to make sure that you have friends or people to talk birthy stuff too, because I have a best friend. Me and her have literally been best friends since kindergarten. And she is like, Brandie I don’t care about placentas. And so this conversation means nothing to me. And so I wanted to find people who care. Like if I wanted to talk about birth and, you know, the good and the bad that really, you know, we’re like, oh, okay. Yeah, I get it too. And so the NBDA became that place for me. I was able to find a lot of community. I was able to see birth workers that were also professionals, which I think is really important in this space, and it really, you know, had a huge impact on me. And so when Tracie first started the NBDA it was literally just a directory, right? It was just supposed to be a way for us to find community and for parents who specifically wanted the services of a Black doula to be able to connect with Black doulas. And it has grown since then, right? And so starting off as a directory, I remember the days when people were online and just asking Tracie why don’t you guys do trainings? We need, you know, an organization that does trainings. You know, by us and for us. And at first, Tracie’s like, I don’t want to train nobody. That’s not really the space that I wanted to fulfill with the NBDA. And I always laugh and I tell her they wore you down.
So I don’t know if wore down is, you know, a proper terminology or that she just chose to, you know, kind of help the community by starting out with building out the curriculum and starting the training process. And so before becoming the new CEO, I was a trainer for the NBDA and loved it. You know, I knew that I enjoyed teaching, but I had no idea that I would enjoy training new doulas quite so much, right? And so I had spent years as a birth worker and just thought that that’s what I’d be doing. Like, I’m like, I’m hip squeezing and aromatherapy for the rest of my life. Like, this is what I want to do. And as I continued on and started training other doulas, I was like, wait, this might be what I want to do. And so that was super exciting to be brought onto the training team. And then last year, towards the beginning of last year, me and Tracie had, a really candid conversation just about her feeling like it was time to do some transitioning. And I know, you know, that she has spoken to a few individuals and I, you know, when we spoke, I’m like, well, Tracie I would love to, you know, be a part of the future of the NBDA. And our mission is definitely helping to really, I mean, have a huge impact on a Black maternal mortality rate. We all know what, I mean, well, most of us, right, listeners, you know, if you listen to this podcast, I’m sure you have, you know, some idea of what maternal mortality looks like here in America, just in general, but specifically Black maternal mortality is something that, you know, we’re really, really passionate about at the NBDA.
And so we want to move that needle by one, helping to make sure families are connected to really great doulas. And then also making sure we have really great doulas, right? So that is where our trainings come into play. So right now we have a directory. We actually just moved to a new home for our directory. That’s really pretty. I’m an aesthetically pleasing person when it comes to customers. So I always want them to have something that’s clean and clear for them to look. And so our families, you know, have the ability to reach out to doulas, to, you know, see what their services are like, do their consultations and really start that process of getting connected to the doula community. And then our doulas that are part of our membership, they also have a host of things that we offer to them to help make sure that they’re keeping their skillset sharp. And then we have our trainings. And so right now we do a placenta encapsulation training. We also have our holistic fertility training. We have our birth doula training and our postpartum doula training. And one training that we offer one to two times a year, depending on the demand, is our sex and intimacy doula training as well. And so, yeah, all of these trainings together, the idea is that we want to make sure that we’re training the next generation of doulas, especially Black and Brown doulas, to be able to really assist in reducing the rate of maternal mortality here in this country.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:17:50:
That’s incredible that it’s like built in, woven into the mission of your organization is training doulas and building that birth workers of tomorrow to help lower maternal mortality rates. Are there any other key principles or values you’re emphasizing in your trainings for the next generation?
Brandie Bishop – 00:18:11:
Yeah. And so I think one of the things that we find that we’re severely lacking, and the thing is that one, I always tell people, even though, you know, being a CEO of the NBDA, but before becoming the CEO, I had this stance and I still have this stance where I always tell people who inquire about our trainings that one, you need to do your research when it comes to trainings, right? I love the NBDA I’m a hundred percent biased. And I do think that everybody should do one of our trainings, but I also am one of those people that similar to birth work. One of the reasons why I became a doula is because I want vulnerable populations, Black and Brown to have choices. There are choices. You need to be informed of your choices so you can make the right one for you. I have the same philosophy when it comes to trainings. There are a bunch of trainers out there these days. You know, Rebecca, you can train here. They’re anywhere. And so you need to do your research. You need to find what training really resonates with you and your goal as a birth worker, right? And if you find that your training, you want it to be something that is historically sound and also has a lot of the principles of not only hospital births, but also we talk about what does it look like to support in the home birth? What does, you know, births and their births look like?
So we try to cover the whole gamut. Of course, it’s a three-day training. And so one of the things that we pair it with is a mentorship. And that way you’re able to get that longer term one-on-one kind of hand-holding to make sure you have everything you need to be a successful doula. But one of the things that I love about our training, and especially because back in the day, before the NBDA even started to do trainings, when I trained, I trained with two different organizations. And one of the things that I really felt that was lacking was the ability to make sure that when telling the story of doula care, that we don’t leave out, you know, Black faces, right? So in the trainings that I went to, the unfortunate truth was not one time was the Black maternal mortality rate mentioned, not one time were the contributions of granny midwives mentioned. And so I felt like the story was being told about us without us. And one of the reasons why, you know, our trainings are not specific, like, of course, we’re the National Black Doulas Association®, but we’ve had, you know, people from various backgrounds to train with. And I find that to be something I’m proud of, really, because I think that everybody needs this information. I don’t think that it is specific to Black doulas, because one, we typically know this information. I do think that this is information that needs to be shared with a wide variety of people. But that probably is one of the things that I’m most proud of that is a part of our curriculum. On day one, we spent a lot of time laying the foundation of obstetrics and gynecology. What it looks like to be a doula in hospitals and a variety of settings.
And I always tell people that it’s important to know what you’re up against. You don’t play a game or, you know, go out to compete without knowing what your opponent is. And not that we look the medical system as something that we have to fight, but definitely something that we need to make sure we can educate our parents on. So that means we need to be educated ourselves, right, on the history of obstetrics and gynecology. Who is Dr. James Marion Sims? And what are the contributions that Granny Midwives made to the expansion of, you know, midwifery care? And what does that look like? And why is that important? And so I find when training, there’s this aha moment when we start to teach the history, and people are like, oh, this is why. You know, because oftentimes, even from parents, I get, well, Brandie why is the maternal mortality rate so high, especially for Black and Brown women, especially in places like Georgia and New York? Where instead of three times more likely, we’re looking at sometimes 20 to 25 times more likely to die giving birth or in that fourth trimester. And I think that it’s important for doulas, as they’re being trained on principles, to also have a why. You know, when you’re passionate about something, you got to develop your why. And I think that that, to me, is the key for helping to build the next generation. I don’t want them to just be doula-ing. I want them to be doula-ing with a reason in mind and understanding, from what framework they’re working. And so, yeah, the history, I think, to me, is one of the most unique things about our trainings and one of the things that really sets our trainings apart.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:22:44:
Yeah. So you’re infusing the history, helping people truly understand the landscape of what we’re walking into when we give birth. And then your why. And you mentioned the mentorship, but I think that’s something that also is important in your program is that you sign up for a training and then the next step is you get your mentor lined up for the next three months.
Brandie Bishop – 00:23:07:
Yeah. You have a three month mentorship. And I think when developing and again, with choices, this is why you do your research. When developing what route to take for training, some trainings have tests, some trainings have packets, some trainings have book reports. I think that I don’t have a problem with any of them. All of the above can work. But I find that with doula care, a lot of times us as doulas, we can be very visual learners. We can be very tactile learners and we’re helpful people. And so doing a book report to me might not convey your ability to do a particular thing. So I think that having a mentor to me has been a much better way to help gauge what level of support and success our doulas are going to have. Like, okay, you’ve done your mentorship. You do a review of your mentor. Your mentor does a review of you and then we can kind of help you understand what your next step should be. But that mentorship to me is a pivotal part. You have to work with somebody who’s doing it so you can understand, you know, how do I actually do this work? Being a doula, it sounds great. I think that unfortunately or fortunately, it’s become kind of a buzzword, if you will, right?
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:24:19:
Right.
Brandie Bishop – 00:24:19:
I think that it’s important to make sure we have our doulas walking hand in hand with people who’ve been doing this 20, 25 years, who have flourishing businesses, who might have agencies, who have some skin in the game, if you will. They understand what, you know, hospital formalities. They understand birth work from home. And I think that that to me is more important. Now, we definitely encourage all, you know, we have CEUs that people have to do. We definitely have our recommended book reading list. But I do think that more important can be that one on one kind of hand-holding, if you will, that can be received through mentorship.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:24:57:
Yeah, it adds to that legacy in Black birth work of apprenticeship and, you know, community. It’s so important.
Brandie Bishop – 00:25:06:
Exactly.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:25:07:
Yeah. Brandie in your years of supporting births or training doulas, I was wondering if you have any particularly inspiring stories that stand out to you that you’d like to share with our listeners.
Brandie Bishop – 00:25:20:
Yeah. So one of my favorite stories, and if you’ve heard me speak, you might have heard this story before, because honestly, to this day, it’s still one of my favorite stories, was one of my very first births, right? So when I was still working at a refugee resettlement agency, I began working with this young lady who had been resettled here in America. She came from Central African Republic, and she and her husband had been separated during a war. And so she was in a refugee camp. She hadn’t spoken to her husband in quite some time. She had a little boy, super, super cute, probably about three or four years old, and she was pregnant. And so the story is so much about triumph and just about like kind of, you know, being able to hold on to hope. Right. And so when she came to America, one, the first thing that was already exciting and interesting about her story was that many of our clients, if you were more than five months pregnant, you couldn’t travel. So the U.N., you know, they wouldn’t sign up on your travel certificate. If you were more than five months pregnant.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:26:20:
So from them traveling to the United States, they couldn’t get permission?
Brandie Bishop – 00:26:24:
Yeah. So from their refugee camp to the United States. And so, yeah, so they wouldn’t be able to travel if they were more than five months pregnant on an airplane to fly from wherever their refugee camp was here to the United States. And so this young lady has somehow managed to travel to the United States. And she was seven and a half months pregnant. Now, mind you, she was a very thin woman and she wore oversized, you know, dashiki type dresses. And so I’m not sure, you know, if the doctors weren’t checking too closely or if she was just really able to hide it. But when she got here to America, she was seven and a half months pregnant. Oh, my gosh. You know, we go to the doctor. We start, you know, really. And from the beginning, because she was already advanced, I really was able to work with her. And we needed to find community right away because she was a single mom who was going to be having another child. And she was still in need of income. And so we really started to tap into the community that was in. So here in Georgia, there is a city called Clarkson. Clarkson is the most diverse city in America by square mile, because with Georgia, that’s where there is a hub of refugees being resettled. And so we were able to tap into her community. Some other single moms that, you know, also came from the same refugee camp as her, you know, just super helpful. So that one is a show of sisterhood and just kind of like the coming together. People, even if we’re not still in our country, we’re going to shower you with love. We’re going to kind of help you get set up.
And so after, you know, we get closer, it’s time for her to deliver her baby. We get to the hospital, you know, she calls me. It’s like two o’clock in the morning. She calls me. Of course, we don’t speak the same language, which was probably one of the more interesting parts of working with refugee families was, and I tell people all the time, I’m like the best charade. I’m a charade master. There’s not many things that I can not charade out because I’ve worked with families that, you know, we don’t speak the same language, but you got to kind of figure out how to make it work sometimes. So she called me and, you know, I taught her the word go. And so that was the only word, you know, in English that she had really learned, but we had, you know, worked with our interpreter to, you know, communicate that so I would know that she was in labor if it happened like during the nighttime or something. So she called me. She said, go. I called the ambulance. We got to the hospital. We have a beautiful baby girl. My one, she was the largest baby that I had had until a couple of years ago. She was 10 pounds, nine ounces, totally natural delivery. Mom calls, you know, dad during, you know, after the delivery, just the way that she gave birth was just so beautiful and so majestic.
And then she calls her husband, you know, she’s able to talk to him, share that she just had the baby. Now in the background, me and one of the other staff members from my office had been working with the Red Cross. We wanted to get her husband here before she delivered. It didn’t end up happening, but about four weeks after she delivered, we were able to surprise her. We went to the airport and she was able to bring her baby and her son. And she was reunited with her husband. And I can be a crier, but typically when I’m working, I’m very focused and serious. But that was probably one of the best moments career-wise for me in general, to be able to, one, stand in the gap for that family and be there when she didn’t have support, she didn’t have a husband. That changed my view of how you can show up for people in vulnerable times. And then to be able to experience that homecoming, this re-, you know, this reunited experience. And for this dad to see his baby girl for the first time, it changed me to the core. And to this day, it’s one of my favorite stories, favorite memories of working with families and being able to see the connection that they had, even though they have been separated, being able to see the dad so excited to see his little girl and, you know, the young boy being able to see his father. And so they have since continued to expand their family. They are now citizens of America. They have two more children. And so, yeah, I just think that it’s an incredible story of strength and resilience and being able to really, I mean, because she was seven months pregnant, it was hard, one, to find a doctor’s office here in America that would take her. She’s now considered to be a late transfer and we have no medical records because she’s coming from a whole different country. So to really advocate for her through that process and make sure we got the best doctors and the best care, even with her seemingly, you know, not having all of the things that needed to be in placed. And then for her to be able to go on. So, you know, really experience something that I’m sure she’s had dreams about, you know, it made all the difference for sure.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:31:08:
That is such a powerful story. Thank you for sharing it with us, Brandie. I think you said something, a few words when you were talking, you said, I stand in the gap. And that was just really powerful as well.
Brandie Bishop – 00:31:22:
I feel that to be a truth, Black doulas in general, if you’re doing it right, you’re standing in a gap for sure. Yeah.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:31:28:
Yeah. And then the ability to witness like these triumphs and these families being formed. It’s just so incredible. What an amazing career and path. And it’s hard to call it a career because it’s more than that. You know, I’m so grateful to you for bringing that into the next generation that’s training within NBDA. Is there anything else you’d like to share with our listeners before you go?
Brandie Bishop – 00:31:54:
I mean, one, thanks to you and your team. I think that organizations like yours help to make our jobs a little bit easier. I always am talking about, you know, the scholarship that you guys have for Black and Brown BIPOC individuals. And just the fact that having evidence is super important, right, in all things in life. But especially when you’re communicating to a family and it’s certain things that they might not know about. Education is a huge part of being a doula. The support is emotional and physical is important. But for me, and I think to a lot of Black and Brown doulas, one of our biggest jobs is to educate. Because oftentimes I find that families don’t know what they don’t know. And for our families, that can be, you know, a wide variety of things. And so grateful to, you know, your organization, other organizations like yours. And I think that in general, just letting the listeners know, like the future for the NBDA is so bright. And we’re excited to be able to do the work that we do. We’re really excited. And, you know, in the coming years, we want to have more programming that is geared towards parents. We think that one of our cause as an organization is definitely being able to educate Black and Brown parents a little bit more when it comes to doula services. We often laugh during training. On the first day, I often ask, now, how many people know the difference between a doula and a midwife?
And how many times have you heard that these things are the same? And so we talk through that because I do think that it can be easy for us to group things, especially when we don’t know what, you know, what these things are. So I do think that one of our burdens is definitely educating, you know, our community as much as possible. So they know that these are things that you can have access to that. And then as we are in Black maternal health and we are kind of gearing up to look at what the framework of birth here in America looks like and specifically what it looks like for Black and Brown bodies. We’re really wanting to focus a lot of attention in the coming years on legislation as well. I think that it’s super important that states and government organizations take the voices of Black doulas seriously. I think that the unfortunate truth is that at certain junctures in history, we find where, you know, Black women have done work to try to get things to be pushed ahead. And then afterwards, we get pushed out of the conversation. And I find that to be true as I see more and more legislation around doula care. I see less and less of Black women’s voices or Black, you know, BIPOC voices being heard within that conversation. And so I do think that, you know, whatever your thing is as a listener, you know, do what you can to support, you know, efforts to move this needle when it comes to maternal mortality in general. And then specifically for Black and Brown maternal mortality. I’m big on giving, you know, a charge at the end of any time I am able to speak because people need a call to action. So what do you do now that you’ve heard this podcast? Now that you know what the NBDA is about, we’re giving you a charge to do your part, whatever that is. You know, some people that charge might be actually doing birth work. Some people it could be signing a petition for some. For some, it can be sending positive thoughts and prayers that whatever you feel like your part can be. You know, you listen to the podcast. I’m going to think that you must want to be involved in birth work to some degree. And so whatever your part is, do it well. And, you know, help us to continue to push this needle.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:35:16:
Yeah. I like that. Brandie pick something to do today.
Brandie Bishop – 00:35:20:
Yeah.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:35:20:
And do it.
Brandie Bishop – 00:35:21:
And do it.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:35:23:
Check out the National Black Doulas Association® website at Blackdoulas.org. They have all their trainings. They’ve got apparel. You can also check out their directories. That’s one resource you have for parents as well is to find different birth workers that are affiliated with you. And then you can follow them @National Black Doulas on Instagram. So Brandie, thank you so much for just sharing your thoughts and your insight and wisdom and passion with us. We really appreciate it.
Brandie Bishop – 00:35:53:
Thank you so much for having me, Rebecca. It’s been a pleasure.
Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:35:57:
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